|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 15:54:56 GMT -5
Post by open_mailbox on Nov 28, 2021 15:54:56 GMT -5
I've been mulling over "gang shit" for a while now, and I'm finally ready to put some of those thoughts down on paper.
Our current implementation of "gangs" is haphazard and wasn't really planned at all. We had some players who wanted to operate "as a gang", so we adapted the job system. We created a "job" for each gang (Ballas, Vagos, etc.) and created some ranks and whatnot so that gang members could have a shared sense of collective belonging. These gang jobs don't receive paychecks and aren't tied to any properties - basically the things that make jobs worth having. So, these current gangs are kind of fitting a square peg into a round hole for the sake of having "something".
In other words, the mechanics around gangs kinda suck right now. Let's talk about how I think things should work moving forward.
First, stop thinking about gangs as guilds. That's how we've been treating them, but that's the wrong comparison. Gangs will be our factions. In WoW terms, they are the Horde and Alliance. In New World terms, they are the Syndicate, Marauders, and Covenant. In other words, they are a large and ever-present group of people who share a common purpose which loosely holds them together - emphasis on "loose". Gangs are rife with infighting, power struggles, and disagreements. The bond that holds gang members together is only as strong as its people.
For that reason, there will not be a defined hierarchy within a gang. There will only be two "ranks": Member and OG. An OG has the power to bring other people into the gang, and members are everyone else. That is the only mechanical difference between the two. Everything else will be determined by power structures that players choose to put in place. As a gang member, who you follow or don't follow is up to you, and is subject to change based on your character's motivations. To join a gang, simply find an OG and convince them to let you join. To leave? Well, you don't leave. OGs will be the only "flagged" gang members who have automatic NPC relationships. In other words, locals will only "shoot on sight" at OGs of rival gangs. Thinking in terms of what makes sense, OGs are the only ones who should be easily recognizable regardless of where they are or what they're wearing.
There will be very little or no other organizational mechanics associated with gang membership. You will not be able to identify fellow gang members (or rivals) on sight unless they choose to identify themselves (i.e. by wearing a color). This also means that people may fairly easily masquerade by wearing another gang's colors. It has the potential to be exceedingly confusing and lead to a lot of misunderstanding and conflict, which is perfect for gang RP.
Gangs will control territory. Each zone on the map may or may not be controlled by a gang. When a gang controls a zone, its members can see the location of all stash houses and dealers within that zone. As we further develop property ownership mechanics, stash houses themselves will be player-owned properties. Property owners and managers will be able to access the cash that accumulates at those stash houses as people purchase drugs, both at that stash house but also from nearby NPC dealers.
Gangs maintain territory control by selling drugs in that zone. The more they sell over the course of a 24-hour period, the more control they maintain in that zone. Conversely, gangs can erode another gang's control over a zone by selling in their territory. This war for control will likely extend to other activities that rival gangs perform in each other's territories (i.e. killing rival members).
This collection of behaviors means that gangs will have a huge influence over the distribution of drugs throughout the map, but it won't completely close off drug distribution as a mechanic available to unaffiliated players. Gangs will still have to "put in work" if they want to exert control over both territory and people. We've also only talked about drug distribution. The relationship between gangs and drug production is a different topic for another time.
|
|
|
Post by suhayma on Nov 28, 2021 16:15:37 GMT -5
I firmly disagree with all of this. Having played in the most active gang in the game for the past year, and having a significant role in it, I can say with conviction that this would nullify a lot of the very difficult RP that we've had and changes a dynamic that works. I don't think we need to shake things up for the sake of shaking things up, and I think that this is doing just that when attention can be focused elsewhere.
If you want gangs to be more involved, we can work on a black market that each gang controls different aspects and commodities of. The drugs can be switched up as well, and if prices are changed based on if you are selling in your "territory" or not, that would be cool.
But erasing a whole system that you have very active people being apart of just because -- that's not cool. At all.
So, I am against this.
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 16:21:17 GMT -5
Post by open_mailbox on Nov 28, 2021 16:21:17 GMT -5
I firmly disagree with all of this. Having played in the most active gang in the game for the past year, and having a significant role in it, I can say with conviction that this would nullify a lot of the very difficult RP that we've had and changes a dynamic that works. I don't think we need to shake things up for the sake of shaking things up, and I think that this is doing just that when attention can be focused elsewhere. If you want gangs to be more involved, we can work on a black market that each gang controls different aspects and commodities of. The drugs can be switched up as well, and if prices are changed based on if you are selling in your "territory" or not, that would be cool. But erasing a whole system that you have very active people being apart of just because -- that's not cool. At all. So, I am against this. Please feel free to explain how any of what I wrote nullifies any RP that has happened or could happen.
|
|
|
Post by lewisphonw on Nov 28, 2021 16:29:27 GMT -5
We just set up a deal to allow mc to sell in the city since we were the only gang around for however long the territories fell into our control. So we charged them money to sell in the city which is a weekly payment. Removing ranks in the gangs is silly too. Having someone prove themselves and earn respect is what gets them from being a street soldier to shot caller.
The whole OGs are the only one who gets shot by npc's I don't agree with either. You know what you're getting into when you sign up for a gang, its not going to be sunshine and rainbows. This just means Members from the MC, VAGOS, CRIPS etc can just roll up to grove street wearing purple and not get shot, gather intel its kinda dumb. failrp if you would. Would you put yourself on the line for that kinda stuff IC no.
I feel if other gangs want to challenge Ballas for territory be my guest or meet up in character and discuss this.
|
|
|
Post by suhayma on Nov 28, 2021 16:32:12 GMT -5
We already organically have staked out locations where we sell our drugs and tell others not to sell drugs. We have them pay a fee to be able to sell in certain areas. We worked on these relationships in our infrastructure with different ranks and have deep, deep stories behind those ranks and where people are in that structure.
I enjoy that we know where our territories are and that we have NPCs that represent guarding those territories, and NPCs that keep us out of other turfs, too.
I like the idea of adjusting prices based off where people sell or if they are selling in their own territory, and maybe that wouldn't be so bad.
But I think it's very out of tune to want to change the whole dynamic of gangs without first conversing with people in the gang to get their opinions first. We are actually out here RPing in the gang daily and making game-wide changes organically, and to have that hand waved for the sake of making this more like New World seems iffy to me.
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 16:39:07 GMT -5
Post by open_mailbox on Nov 28, 2021 16:39:07 GMT -5
We just set up a deal to allow mc to sell in the city since we were the only gang around for however long the territories fell into our control. So we charged them money to sell in the city which is a weekly payment. Why couldn't this happen under the new system? Removing ranks in the gangs is silly too. Having someone prove themselves and earn respect is what gets them from being a street soldier to shot caller. Again, why isn't this possible anyways? If anything, I'm suggesting that we make it even more meritocratic. There are no assumed power structures other than the ones that you-as-players enforce. The whole OGs are the only one who gets shot by npc's I don't agree with either. You know what you're getting into when you sign up for a gang, its not going to be sunshine and rainbows. This just means Members from the MC, VAGOS, CRIPS etc can just roll up to grove street wearing purple and not get shot, gather intel its kinda dumb. failrp if you would. Would you put yourself on the line for that kinda stuff IC no. The counterpoint to this is that it's equally FailRP to have locals pop off on someone who's wearing a mask and not their gang colors because somehow they can be magically identified. Pick your FailRP poison of preference. I think the best option here would be that the gang NPCs aggro on anyone wearing a rival color regardless of if they're gang-affiliated or not. If I can figure out how to do that effectively, that would be my preference.
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 16:41:27 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Mouse on Nov 28, 2021 16:41:27 GMT -5
I think this is very bad idea thank you
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 16:46:25 GMT -5
Post by open_mailbox on Nov 28, 2021 16:46:25 GMT -5
We already organically have staked out locations where we sell our drugs and tell others not to sell drugs. We have them pay a fee to be able to sell in certain areas. We worked on these relationships in our infrastructure with different ranks and have deep, deep stories behind those ranks and where people are in that structure. I'm not seeing why this can't continue to happen. I enjoy that we know where our territories are and that we have NPCs that represent guarding those territories, and NPCs that keep us out of other turfs, too. Yes? I would likely add some visual map indicator so you would actually KNOW what the gang controls. The NPCs also are not going anywhere. I just want to tune their aggression behavior. I like the idea of adjusting prices based off where people sell or if they are selling in their own territory, and maybe that wouldn't be so bad. Yes, it would make sense that there's a bonus for selling in your own territory and a penalty for selling in others'. But I think it's very out of tune to want to change the whole dynamic of gangs without first conversing with people in the gang to get their opinions first. We are actually out here RPing in the gang daily and making game-wide changes organically, and to have that hand waved for the sake of making this more like New World seems iffy to me. We are talking right now. That's why I wrote the post instead of just starting to change things. This isn't just a hand-waved change for the sake of making a change. It's an intentional system design for something that was not previously defined at all. There are many things I do not like about how gangs have worked up to this point, but I've mostly just stayed to the side because I wasn't ready to tackle the design of a gang system yet. But just so we're on the same page: The current way things work is not good.
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 16:46:31 GMT -5
Post by indigojar on Nov 28, 2021 16:46:31 GMT -5
I'm glad to see that one of the biggest design elements that was planned from the very beginning of the server to make a unique form of gang roleplay (Territories) is being given thought.
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 16:48:17 GMT -5
Post by suhayma on Nov 28, 2021 16:48:17 GMT -5
We just set up a deal to allow mc to sell in the city since we were the only gang around for however long the territories fell into our control. So we charged them money to sell in the city which is a weekly payment. Why couldn't this happen under the new system? Removing ranks in the gangs is silly too. Having someone prove themselves and earn respect is what gets them from being a street soldier to shot caller. Again, why isn't this possible anyways? If anything, I'm suggesting that we make it even more meritocratic. There are no assumed power structures other than the ones that you-as-players enforce. The whole OGs are the only one who gets shot by npc's I don't agree with either. You know what you're getting into when you sign up for a gang, its not going to be sunshine and rainbows. This just means Members from the MC, VAGOS, CRIPS etc can just roll up to grove street wearing purple and not get shot, gather intel its kinda dumb. failrp if you would. Would you put yourself on the line for that kinda stuff IC no. The counterpoint to this is that it's equally FailRP to have locals pop off on someone who's wearing a mask and not their gang colors because somehow they can be magically identified. Pick your FailRP poison of preference. I think the best option here would be that the gang NPCs aggro on anyone wearing a rival color regardless of if they're gang-affiliated or not. If I can figure out how to do that effectively, that would be my preference. The point of all your "why can't you still do this" retorts is that nothing has to be changed in any of this because it is already being done by us right now. If gang players already enjoy their rank structure now (a structure that is very important to the MC, which is trying to get back on its feet), and enjoy the way the NPCs are working and enjoy the fact they are organically RPing and creating territories, then why we are trying to fix something that isn't broken? There are other aspects of the game that could use an overhaul and/or something new to spruce it up that isn't completely turning this one on its head. I would rather seen energy and resources go into new, refreshing systems like a black market that could really give the gangs something to sink their teeth into than seeing our current system "New-World-a-fied."
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 16:52:14 GMT -5
Post by open_mailbox on Nov 28, 2021 16:52:14 GMT -5
Unsurprisingly, the people who have the most to say here are the ones who have thrived under the current status quo. I would also be interested in hearing from people who haven't thrived.
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 16:55:18 GMT -5
Post by suhayma on Nov 28, 2021 16:55:18 GMT -5
The ones who haven't thrived have not been actively RPing on this game either at all or as much as the current active gang members, so I don't think our opinions should be hand-waved off. At least, I hope that is not what is happening here. It's important to have your finger on the pulse of the people who are RPing day in and day out and contributing to the current culture and environment of TSRP.
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 17:01:39 GMT -5
Post by open_mailbox on Nov 28, 2021 17:01:39 GMT -5
The ones who haven't thrived have not been actively RPing on this game either at all or as much as the current active gang members, so I don't think our opinions should be hand-waved off. At least, I hope that is not what is happening here. It's important to have your finger on the pulse of the people who are RPing day in and day out and contributing to the current culture and environment of TSRP. You're still assuming that everything we're currently doing is good, or that everything that has happened up to this point which led to other people leaving (or never getting involved in the first place) is acceptable. I disagree with both of those. Hence, I am not happy with the current state of gang RP. Hence, why I want to change things. Hence, why I'm interested in hearing from people who AREN'T at the top of the current meta. This is the definition of confirmation bias. I want to intentionally design every aspect of the game. I don't want things to exist "just because that's how we've always done it". This critical analysis of a system exercise is the same thing we did for vehicle repairs not long ago, and the licenses/skill system before that. Things are going to change. They always have, and they always will. This is a game design process.
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 17:17:03 GMT -5
Post by havoker06 on Nov 28, 2021 17:17:03 GMT -5
I don't think the current system needs to be changed and like Lewis said when you sign up to a gang you are bound to get shot up, if cant then it don't join a gang. Ballas have their trap house and the MC has their own club etc. The game already has pre set territories for all of the gangs.
I liked the territories thing but it is already being done IC between gangs. If a gang is paying another to sell on their territory and selling makes the original gang lose said territory why would that happen.
I really think it should stay the way it is because if you are trying to make it so that other gangs can come up they can use all the protection they can afford by local gang members. For eg. All of the ballas can wear non colors and shoot up in any area which would definitely stun other gangs growth. the same way we BALLAS get shot the fuck up as soon as we enter the BARRIO.
IN SHORT: I dont think it needs to be fixed. If people arent thriving in this then they arent going to in a new system that takes more time from you for no gain.
|
|
|
Gangs
Nov 28, 2021 17:32:07 GMT -5
Post by lewisphonw on Nov 28, 2021 17:32:07 GMT -5
We just set up a deal to allow mc to sell in the city since we were the only gang around for however long the territories fell into our control. So we charged them money to sell in the city which is a weekly payment. Why couldn't this happen under the new system? Because if someone sells 1 baggie of weed in a territory and no one contests that in a 24hour period the next restart it will become their territory. Unless you add a bar of progression that Gangs can see we can go counteract it and fight back i think that would be better. New World if you wish. - For me, Im just saying I prefer the way it is I like have 3-4 ranks in gang. I like seeing who is a shot caller, street soldier, OG through /job and being able to go up and down the ranks. I agree that its fail-rp that you just get magically shot because you're gang associated but at the same time I prefer it instead of being able to roll up on a rival gangs turf and not get any sort of resistance. I pick this failrp poison rather than any other.
|
|